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Nick Holmes's avatar

It’s always struck me as amazing how politically active people had a tendency to ricochet from communist/socialist and onto fascist.

For example, I believe Mr Mussolini, who knew a thing or two about fascism, was a card carrying member of the communist party until he was 35.

Glad to read you believe that the word fascist, like racist, is losing its sting through over use.

Inflation eh?

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Simon Webb's avatar

Yes, words lose their value over time, just like currency!

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Eugine Nier's avatar

Many "fascist" or "third position" movements are really off brand socialism, i.e., designed to appeal to people attracted by socialist ideals like "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" but who have seen how badly socialist systems tend to work in practice.

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Pierre Bezukhov's avatar

True, so did Mosley and Hitler.

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Ben's avatar
Oct 8Edited

Mussolini was member of the Socialist Party of Italy, until he broke with it in 1914-15 over a big disagreement about Italy taking in part in the First World War. (Musssolini wanted Italy to join, the party did not.)

No marxist-based party called itself Communist until the Bolsheviks in Russia started to designate themselves as such in early 1918 .

Hitler was involved in the Workers and Soldiers Council in Munich, Bavaria, in early 1919, but he appears never to have formally joined a marxist party.

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SAFF's avatar

This is all very interesting. All philosophies are circular and each is contained within each other. It is natural for the imperfect/developing intellect to work towards the aim of political perfection to solve the human condition, making errors, discarding some ideas and accommodating others as the individual develops. Evolution ensures that no-one and no-thing is born fully-formed under the Sun. This results in the circularity of all philosophies for the route to an imagined utopia and the urge to gain power to fulfil it are universal qualities in those with that most dangerous of things - a social conscience. As Ayn Rand pointed out ' all forms of Altruism are a precursor to Communism' . Academe, now held hostage by the Left, cannot stomach this idea of the circularity of philosophies and so has modified it with the 'Horseshoe Theory' which posits the political Right and Left at the ends of the horseshoe, a broken circle, 'and never the twain shall meet'. The crucial realisation, that most idealogues inexorably move completely around the circle to become that which they despise, is neatly avoided.

Yet the clue is in the name ; The National SOCIALIST party. Hitler's main constituency was the ordinary working class German who had similar prejudices to himself. If alive today Hitler's philosophy would have probably been considered to be centre-left! It was the working class 'sheeple' who put Hitler into power, not because they were all obsessed evil jackbooted anti-semites, but because they believed he would take money from the idle rich and give it to the oppressed poor to improve their lot. 'It's the economy stupid' Of course once it was clear that Hitler was the only politician radical enough to rebuild the German economy and save Capitalists from the Bolsheviks, the Industrialists flocked to support him and like many other political hypocrites have and are doing today, the bourgeois Hitler fell in with the Elite .

'Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. ' yet we raise ignorant children who are indoctrinated into what to think instead of educating them with the facts of history and teaching them how to think.

And if you consider that culling the mentally ill and Educational Sub Normal children was a quirk of history, an aberration of twentieth century barbarism, think again and take a look at the Groeningen Protocol https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4240050/ .

On the 'Jewish question' I presume there is no need to labour the comparison with Hitler's 'Final Solution' and Iran's 'From the River to the Sea' movement over which the Left is currently obsessed. Both sought/seek the genocide of all Jews. Gypsies, Gays, Kafirs etc. coming a close second as outlined in that book that no one must ever mention on tinternet. The placards on these London Hammas marches are clear proof that all political ideologies will eventually become that which the ideology promised you they would eradicate.

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John Dapper's avatar

Most younger people and some college professors have no idea what a fascist or Nazi is. You are right, those words for the lesser informed are terms of disapproval. Often the people with more in common with fascists or Nazis are closer to the real definition than the people they accuse.

The standards of education and for teachers has gone down. Will they ever return?

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Simon Webb's avatar

Judging by the teachers and academics whom I know, I would have to say that I can't see rigorous use of language returning any time soon!

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David Charles's avatar

The only thing dumber than a college professor is a college student.

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VEL - The Contemporary Heretic's avatar

George Orwell, writing only a couple of years after the end of WWII, that:

“The word fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable’.”

_______________

“Fascist movements tend to be financed by the wealthy, rather than getting their money from small donations and membership fees from their rank and file”

I think the general consensus among historians today is that the rise of the NSDAP in Germany was indeed funded by “small donations and membership fees from their rank and file”. See for example this article from the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths/five-myths-about-nazis/2017/10/20/f4463dea-b2b5-11e7-9e58-e6288544af98_story.html

The idea that the rise of the Nazis was funded by donations by wealthy business interests seems to have been an idea promoted by Marxist historians in accordance with the notion that fascism represented the last gasp of the capitalist class for forestall the inevitable coming of communism.

In fact, big business tended to be quite wary of the NSDAP, and large donations from the business elite only began at the last moment when the latter realised that the Nazis were indeed likely to come to power, and that, in order to protect their own interests, the business elite had better curry favour with the upcoming party, especially when it seemed likely that the choice might well be between them and the communists.

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Pierre Bezukhov's avatar

This is true of Germany, perhaps in Italy. In Italy, Mussolini was a former socialist who played brinksmanship with the crown to gain power. The march on Rome happened right after the war, and Italy was not a major industrial power, so I’m not sure if industrialists really backed Mussolini.

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Bell in the Breach's avatar

Fascists are easy to spot. They're the ones who call everyone else fascists.

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Kevin Simpson's avatar

this sounds like antifa I read about so much in the past 4 years - "Fascist movements tend to be financed by the wealthy, rather than getting their money from small donations and membership fees from their rank and file. Aristocrats and bankers are likely to provide the money, often because they hope to exploit the group for their own purposes; perhaps by using them to combat socialism, an ideology which they think might damage their business interests. There is a fierce intolerance of any opposition to their political aims; either from within the party or in society at large. Opposition or dissent within the group typically results in purges of rebellious members; when those outside set themselves against the movement, this is often met with terrorism, either in the form of attacks on individuals or by more indiscriminate means." IMO

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Jim Shaw's avatar

I expect it has long been the case that people get put in groups, often self-labelling. What does seem to relatively modern is the use of group labels that no 'right' person should be a member of.

Once people might be openly 'free-traders' or 'protectionist', 'republicans' or monarchists'. People in the opposing groups could still be friends, perhaps because few were '100% in-group', the republican might like the King, the monarchist believe the role should be ceremonial, not absolute.

Now we have labels like racist, xenophobe, Islamophobe and fascist that free-thinkers might have willingly accepted to a degree in the past but which now are virtually treated as criminal charges or thought crimes. Sign-up to wanting the trains to run to time and clearly you want those trains to be heading towards Belsen!

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Peter Steenkamp's avatar

Hitler was a member of the Bavarian Communist party in 1919. Mussolini was a communist until during ww1 he noticed that workers would rather fight for their country than for their class. So he swapped class consciousness for nation consciousness. Still collectivist, just a different collective.

Hitler later swapped class consciousness for race consciousness.

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Simon Webb's avatar

Race and class are easily confused though, which happens when people in modern Britain are examining prejudice.

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Steven Gresham Farrall's avatar

"Fascist movements tend to be financed by the wealthy, rather than getting their money from small donations and membership fees from their rank and file. Aristocrats and bankers are likely to provide the money," By that definition both Blair and Starmer are 'fascists'. :-)

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Tom Sherwood's avatar

Far left in USA is starting to resemble that classical definition in many ways. In my opinion. I do find actual fascism distasteful and as "Un-American" as outright communism. Actual right wing(?) fascism in the USA seems to be a tiny fringe and are watched closely and vastly overshadowed by those of the other extreme end of that scale these days. You would assume the opposite from mainstream sources. As for Youtube comments below Mr. Webb's videos, those that blather about fought the wrong enemy, Support for some "Austrian painter" etc. would seem to be even more deplorable from a British P.O.V., since Britain experienced direct attacks and great civilian casualties from that war. Tell that rubbish to someone who's family members were killed by German raids. I would think you would need to count your teeth afterwards.

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Simon Webb's avatar

Some of the comments on my channel are indeed appalling. I have made my views very clear about those who talk about Hitler in that way and yet they still hang out there. I think it because I do not delete comments or operate any moderation which means that the channel is, effectively, a safe space for them

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Andrew Barr's avatar

I agree that the first principle of Fascism is a rejection of democracy, because that's where Fascism started, with a reaction to the perceived failure of democracy following the First World War. Fascism subordinates the rights of the individual (including the right to vote governments in and out) to the authority of the state. In today's upside-down world, so-called 'anti-Fascists' who believe that our individual interests should be overridden by the needs of the collective (most noticeably during the COVID debacle) condemn as 'Fascist' people who stand up for civil liberties and human rights. I've just written a Substack article on this topic, about the weaponisation of a false narrative of the Battle of Cable Street by supposed 'anti-Fascists' to smear as 'Far Right' and 'Fascist' anyone who protests the damage caused to British society by uncontrolled immigration: https://stiffnecked.substack.com/p/the-fake-battle-of-cable-street

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Patrik Johansson's avatar

['Better late (commenting) than sorry'?]

Mr Webb concludes: –"We are assured [—By the 'Establishment', My Rem.—] that in America, Donald trump is a fascist, and the same is asserted of British politician Nigel Farage, but when one asks those describing those two men in such a way what they actually mean by the term, they tend to grow uncomfortable or angry. This is an indication that the word has changed from being a useful descriptor of a specific political system into a pointless expression of disapproval. In other words, it is not an objective description, but a personal opinion."

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I think that Mr Webb is (in this text) contradicting himself (in regard to his videos) –

(Maybe he is reflecting/reasoning from an intellectual/academic perspective, and not a practical one, which is what really matters.)

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– The 'expression' (it is a personal and moral accusation) 'racist' (interchangeable with 'fascist', and today a.k.a 'far-right') is anything but Pointless. And, it is useful to the highest degree, so much so that it leads to fundamental changes.

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This can be heard and seen in his videos, where he mentions that England is becoming less and less english in its character (Culture: visual, behavioural, attitudes, collective memory/history).

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For example:

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(A) 2024-Oct-12: "Do the BBC really think that 80% of the people in Britain are black or is there a sinister motive?";

(B) 2024-Oct-11: "Whiteness - a problem for our time; a seminar held at the Tavistock Clinic"

(See also New Culture Forum/Peter WHITTLE 2022-Oct-23: "Whiteness: A Problem of Our Time": Nurse Sues NHS For Racist Class Saying Bible & Whites Are Racist".);

(C) 2024-Aug-13, GB News: "Matthew GOODWIN (political scientist, 'Substacker'): White British people will become a minority by 2070";

(D) 2024-Feb-22, The Telegraph.co.uk, Suella BRAVERMAN (MP?, fmr. Home Secretary): –"We need to overcome the FEAR of being labelled Islamophobic [and 'RACIST', My Rem.] and speak truthfully. [—ie. freedom of speech: When applied, it leads to changes, or the prevention thereof]".

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WHAT I would like to read from Mr Webb (and from PM Starmer and BBC) is, reflections on why the english (when accused acc. its subjective/personal opinion) has not used their Defamation Law, considering:

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1. 2024-Apr-19 Simon WEBB: "The central lie of anti-racism has enjoyed unrivalled success among the credulous and dull-witted"

(VIDEO 01:58) –"... in this modern world of ours the very accusation of racism [—INCL. of english people's children??, My. Rem.—] alone can be enough to destroy somebody's career and cause irreparable harm to their reputation and social life.");

2. The Law/courts are the final integration measure — ie. what can and can not be said to and about newcomers when they are going to learn of the English's ways (as above: Culture) — that determines the future/change.

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SAFF's avatar

This is well-meant but far below your usual incisive analyses. Your first paragraph containing your own definition of Fascism could equally apply in almost every respect to the evolution of any political movement including the far-left! 'Fasces' were originally the bundle of sticks bound together which was used as a Mace of Authority by Roman Magistrates who wielded the judicial power of the State and made ad-hoc decisions which were binding on the community. Their judgement was relied upon and their word was law. The symbolic meaning of the Fasces was that small wooden sticks which anyone could break were impossible to break when bundled and bound together in sufficient numbers , and this represented the community working together as a united whole. It is epitomised by the modern method of handing a 'talking stick' around a group, the possession of which entitles the holder only to speak. Dictatorship is an associated modern pejorative, but the Roman Dictator was a person put in place to take evidence and set law 'universally' on bigger questions which the COLLECTIVE Magistrates did not have the power to decide upon, so not much different to the attorney general of today.

Anciently these political systems worked efficiently without any of the negative associations now attributed to them. Anyone who has ever worked under parliamentary committee rules can only dream of the concise and speedy way that Magistrates solved legal problems in Ancient Rome.

The 'Fascist Salute' made infamous by goose-stepping Nazis is another misnomer. Originally Roman soldiers saluted with a right-hand opened, arm stretched straight-out, with the hand facing downwards, simply to signify that they came without weapons or belligerence. (probably after Julius caeser was assassinated by being daggered to death in a ritual killing by a group of senators in 44BCE ) .

The 'myth' of the modern Far-right was worked up by Lefties during the evolution of Communism and particularly (rightly) stained the Nazi movement after WWII because the Victors always write the history books. Note that the Germans (and the British) committed equal atrocities and war-crimes during The Great War but these are not attributed to Nazism but to Prussian military psychosis,; just as the Japanese (who worked in close alliance with the Nazis) are never accused of being Nazis even though their war crimes often put the those of the Nazis in the shade. The Japanese are excused their crimes because of the Bushido Code instead! In short the myth of Nazism which has become a byword for evil and man's inhumanity to man is simply a collection of trigger-words injected into the minds of ignorant sheeple, initially from war-propaganda designed to coalesce the war spirit of the British nation, and since then by Commies on the make who want to seize power and silence a debate which might unearth the repercussions of their own political ideology. Such as Communism being the cause of the most unnecessary mass killings in human history. (about 100 million dead at last estimate, but growing daily in the Middle East and North Africa) Be careful what you wish for - the true meaning of a thing always resides in it's opposite.

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Steve's avatar

"The authoritarian left" is another useful term for woke fascists.

Interesting data that we passed "peak woke" 2 years ago. https://www.economist.com/podcasts/2024/09/27/why-is-america-becoming-less-woke

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Steve's avatar

Fascism is just honest socialism.

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J. C. Lester's avatar

On a related issue, a reasonable case can be made for analysing extreme wokeness as a form of inverted fascism (plus hypocrisy): https://jclester.substack.com/p/woke-a-libertarian-viewpoint?utm_source=publication-search

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Simon Webb's avatar

Yes, that sounds plausible to me!

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Jim's avatar

Like all of your postings, truthful and Debunked.

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Simon Webb's avatar

I am glad that you should think so! Thank you.

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